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Shoresh'im Ministries
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Comments
Vote
I put none of the above..because I didn't fit them..In my line is jewish blood..I was raised a Christian, but have always been drawed to the Jews..I know why now..I don't know a lot about there holy days..but some of the foods we eat in my family would be jewish..I discover I had a great great great great grandmother who was jewish..I love the information your provide us..
I wonder how many share this same story?
Ann I have to say you have told my story. For the last seven years I have wondered why what I was being taught was not adding up to what I was reading. For five years I was trying to find a connection as to why I was so pulled to this and why I was being so convicted about some of the traditions I had held so close. Two years ago I found someone who was willing to teach me and I found the connections I was needing. It was during that time my mother finally shared with me that we were of German Jew decent. And like you I feel like I know why the pull was there now. Now as I study the Bible from a Hebrew perspective I am seeing an agreement in the new and old testament that I have never seen before. Like Mr. Cloud says, "There is nothing new it's just true."
You have a holy soul
You *may* have a Jewish soul. If so, it needs to be nourished with the proper nutrients. I'd prescribe a diet free of the Jewish human being that Jewishroots.co.uk thinks was God. For the Jew, those before the Nazarene were, historically speaking, better days.
You have a holy soul... a response
Hi John, you seem adept at saying what is NOT good for us Jewish people, whilst at the same time being rather thin on the ground on what is good for us. Please let us know more. It would also be interesting to hear how you define Jewishness, although I expect your definition will remain within the usual confines of the grasps Rabbinic Tradition has had on our people for many centuries... in anticipation of a useful debate. :-)
Tough to answer...
You've captured one of the difficult issues with this movement, namely, what to call ourselves. I answered "Messianic Gentile" since I have no Hebrew blood but I have been told that I am now technically not a Gentile anymore. I figured out that you were looking for a distinction of whether I was a "Jew" who believed in Yeshua as Messiah or one who was a Gentile, now coming into the fold, so to speak, not only believing in Messiah but in obeying the Torah now, as well. Also, since I have left the church, I do not consider myself a Messianic Christian.
I have learned that many who call themselves Messianic do not obey the Torah and that is why some do not like or use the name now. I often tell my Christian friends that I have returned to the Hebrew roots of our faith. When I use the term "Messianic", most Christians think I'm talking about being "A Messy" or haven't a clue at all. Sad, huh?
Another option: Sabbatarian
As my last post was being published, I happened to notice that you're from the UK. I have friends over there that basically believe as I do but call themselves Sabbatarians. I just thought I'd point it out since some of those who choose "Other" will most certainly fall into this category.
Re: Sabbatarians
Thanks for your helpful comments.
One issue with the term "Sabbatarians" is that it doesn't necessarily carry the additional Hebraic elements we tend to reflect in this movement of G-d. Some Christians, and even other "sects," would also firmly adhere to keeping the Sabbath, and some would not insists that this would be on Saturday, but as a Sunday Sabbath. It could be a sub-category, but doesn't seem wide enough in scope to cover the full flavour of what we're aiming at.
This is bound to create an interesting debate, which I am looking forward to immensely!
Thanks again, Andy :-)
Messianic?
Here is a Biblical name one can use:
Sons of the living God.
Hosea 1: 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
This is what a friend of a friend used to describe herself (and the group of people she was with) in Jerusalem when they were approached on Shabbat by an Orthodox Rabbi who wanted to know who they were, where they were from since they were observing Shabbat, wearing tzit-tzit, and were not ethnically Jewish. He was pleased with her answer.
Israel when they were scattered by Assyria was essentially sown into the nations or goyim, they lost their identity....and Yeshua came looking for the LOST sheep of the house of Israel.....so it is a very applicable title. It also fits with Jeremiah 31: 31 where the new covenant is made NOT with the goyim but the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
What am I?
Even though I voted a "Messianic Jew", I never lived a Jewish lifestyle before walking as Yeshua walked. I was raised in the church knowing that I was Jewish in my family line. I do not call myself a Messianic because I found that many Messianics only want tradition and do not want to follow the Torah anymore than the gentile church wants to follow Torah. I call myself a Torah Observant Believer in Yeshua! Or as my daughter calls herself...a Hebrew! :-) We crossed over from the world's ways to Adonai's ways.
What am I?
I found this poll very confusuing. I go to a bible believing church and I'm a born again Christian but didn't know what to call myself. What is a 'Christian Gentile' in compariosn to a 'Messianic' Christian? Are these labels really necessary and if so, could someone please explain them and what they are useful for! Maybe they should be explained befoer people vote or the poll may largely be inaccurate.
Confusing names...
Hi Ruth. Sorry if the names / titles were a little confusing.
This, of course, wasn't our intention, but an unfortunate by-product of any title - they're never as good as a descrioption, and even a description often leads on to more discussion! I'd say that the first part of the title aims to suggest the "flavour" of the individual's lifetstyle (Messianic would therefore have a flavour of Jewish / Biblical characteristics, such as keeping the Biblical feasts, etc). The second is to give some hint as to the "natural" background (not necessarily faith, practice or belief). Thus "gentile" would simply denote "not Jewish" (i.e. neither father or mother being from Jewish extraction).
We acknowledge that titles / labels are far from perfect and aren't intended in any way to "define" the person, but it has been interesting to see the clear "spiritual / faith demographic" of people involved with Shoreshim Ministries, either here or on the Facebook site.
Thanks for your interest and involvement,
Andy
I think many of your readers
I think many of your readers need to reread Galatians. Shaul telling the church and Kefa that they had fallen to false teachers.
These false teachers attacked on three fronts , first they undermined Shauls apostolic credibility. Second, they demanded circumcision as a condition for salvation. Third, they required observation of all Jewish ceremonies and ritual.
These false teachers claimed to be followers of Yeshua Messiah. Some came perhaps from the Yerushalayim assembly. They may even have claimed Yerushalayim`s support ( se Act 15:1 - 5 ).
They were called "Judaizers" for there efforts to make " Jewishness" a standard for the believers in Messiah Yeshua. In comparison to the Judaizers, Shaul`s teaching was clearly salvation by grace apart from works, and life in grace apart from ceremony. So in his letter to the Galatians Shaul had three tasks : defend his apostleship and right to speak authoritatively/; restate the gospel of grace; encourage followers of Messiah Yeshua to live free from the Law ( Torah).
Chapter 3 says it all really. I voted Messianic Goyim, as i am grafted into the olive tree and not the root. But now part of our Lords family.
Shabbat is a Saturday, Sunday was brought in by Emperor Constantine after his mother who was a believer told him if he wanted to keep control of his empire which was losing hold to the growing church ( early church not the church of the west). He should become a christian and get his pagan followers to join him. They would more easily convert if he slipped in some of there pagan practises, ie worship of there sun god hence Sabbath became Sunday.
P.S If you keep the Torah you have to keep the whole Torah and if that is the case what was the point in Yeshua. Just a thought.
Shalom, and in love.
Yochanan.
Thanks John. This is
Thanks John. This is obviously a big topic, and one that is often discussed on our Facebook community page (www.Facebook.com/BiblicalRoots). I can't help but think that your views are based on misunderstandings and perhaps even wrong assumptions regarding our views on Torah and its purpose and usefulness. Some of your statements also go against what both Yeshua and Paul clearly stated, which underlines that this is not a simple issue, and one that needs much research and prayer.
Perhaps you could find the time to listen to our Jewish Roots Yeshiva podcast teaching on the matter of "Torah Rediscovered" (http://www.shoreshim.co.uk/content/torah-rediscovered-pdf-and-podcast) to get a better and fuller understanding of our perspective. Bear in mind also, that this is not just about academic and head knowledge, but about value added lifestyle, of whioch we have many testimonies of the powrr and light of walking this path.
Anyway, thanks again, and maybe speak again soon.
Blessings,
Andy
Thank you bruv, I will have a
Thank you bruv, I will have a look at the links. Peace and blessings to you all.
Shalom, John.
Teaching cd`s
Hi Andy, First I would like to apologise for my blog on your site, you are right I have a lot to learn. I have been reading through your site and am very interested in learning more. I have down loaded some of your teachings from your site, but would like to buy some of your teaching cd`s if that is possible. How do i go about this ?. Again I am sorry if I upset anyone with my incorrect opinions on Galatians.
Yours in Faith, John Hart.
Teaching CDs
John, Thanks for your very kind message. You can order CDs in several ways, but the best would probably be to call Jeremy in our office on +44 (0) 1793 86 22 02. He can take your order, payment (for costs) and get them deliverred out to you. Tere are also some videos that you may be interested in... Blessings in Him, Andy
Mosaic Law
I listed myself in this survey as a Gentile Christian. Mainly because I do not keep the Sabbath, although I want to (life conspires against me) and believe it is righteous to do so. Please do not confuse Torah with Mosaic Law. Marriage, tithing, sabbath-keeping, caring for the poor and your family pre-date Mosaic law. Moses codified how these things were to be done, but they originate in the beginning, not in the 10 Commandments. My personal guide/goal if you will, is Isaiah 58. To honor God as Creator, respect and care for His creation, honor and care for our fellow human beings, to show self-restraint, against these things there is no law. Do I eat pork? Yes, But at one point in my faith walk I didn't.. For me, eating pork has become a faith statement that separates Christians from Jews and Muslims....it is not what goes into a person that makes him/her unclean, it is what comes out that person. I'm working on the Sabbath-keeping, but in all of these things I consider myself to be Torah observant. It's not a legalistic thing. It's love and honor and respect.
Eating Pork
I used to eat pork....until I read Isaiah 66 which speaks of Messiah's return, and some VERY disturbing consequences for those who are eating pork and a variety of other things.
I found it difficult to claim that I followed the Jewish Messiah who never would have eaten pork....for if He had, his death would have been in vain, and eat such things which are so out of character with who He was.
Another thing to consider before consuming such things is that the main verse which is taught in church about "Be holy for I am holy" is found in 1 Peter 1: 16....what is overlooked is that phrase is preceeded by another phrase which is equally if not more important: "Because it is written".
Since Peter is quoting and expects his audience to know what he is talking about, it behooves each of us to go look up where this was written, because Peter does not repeat the whole context.
Yes it is a Torah command, but how does Torah expect us to accomplish this command. There are only about 3 places where this phrase is used in Torah, and every one of them is preceeded or followed by other instructions which make it very clear what we are to do in order to BE HOLY, and not defile ourselves.
All of them have a common theme....and several of them have a much more specific theme....a theme which is absolutely foreign to most Christian teaching....
Here are the references, take a look (be sure to read the context):
Leviticus 11: 44-45
Leviticus 19: 2
Leviticus 20: 26
and one more which is a bit different and applies to a smaller group of people:
Leviticus 21: 8
Torah keeping
Yes we are to keep Torah.....that has never been the means of salvation, it is the response to salvation.....and yep if one fails in one point, that one is guilty of all....
What did Yeshua say to the man who inquired what he must do to be saved?
He told him to do what?
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
This is a shrothand reference to keeping Torah....what was Yeshua's answer again? "Do this and you shall live."
Interesting things which are often just read over in an efort to get on to the parable of the Good Samaritan.....
Blessings,
Diane H.
justification / redemption and sanctification
Justification / redemption come through Messiah´s sacrifice and His righteousness is credited to our account. However sanctification comes through right living as detailed in Torah. John saw no contradiction between trusting in Yeshua and keeping the Torah
1 John 3 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight
I recommend reading the first letter of John where he lays a foundation for us to comprehend what loving God is. As ex christians we should redefine our concept of sin - for the apostles it was breaking Torah. Torah I´ve found has many layers like an onion - first we see the basic rule but peeling back we see another layer of commitment / obedience required. It begins to work on our heart as we see in the verse in Hebrews -
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb. 4:12
sarah
vote
I hoped you would have put "former gentile" as a category as that's what I believe I am. Paul makes this clear in Ephesians chapter 2. After 5 TORAH cycles Yah has shown me that I am in covenant with Him and I will, to the best of my ability not go back to christianity.
messianic gentile
Hi I married a man named Salmans
and has researched his personal family history to the time where his greatgrandfather came to North America and then they "lost " their Jewish heritage .My children have all been ""baptized by a messianic jewish rabbi .so Im still a heinz 57 but who a has a large heart for the jewish people and one child has paid her own way to Isreal . WE believe we are all jewish in way or another . But i want to learn . so here i am .
Who you are
Well I hope you don't get this twice now, I don't see my post so am doing it again. I checked none of the above simply because it is my understanding that once I am a believer in Meshiach I am grafted into the olive tree. My understanding is I am now as much Israel as Israel. Ro. 11:17. I am not boasting against the original branches, mind you, but I am no longer a gentile (a pagan, a heathen an unbeliever). The term Messianic Gentile is an oxymoron, a Messianic unbeliever??? I am the seed of our father's Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Thank you.
Who are we?
Good post, Tammy, many thanks. :-)
what´s in a name
I´ve been around the messianic movement for about 10 years , albeit from a distance as I live in the south of Spain where there´s no group. It was clear from the begining - when I started to keep Shabbat - that a Torahless church was not my home / family. Neither did I find that taking on a lot of culturally Jewish forms and practices expressed my spiritual identiy - hence I found the messianic movement not to be my resting place. I find my identity is best expressed in being part of Israel - the obedient part . What I mean is that there is an Israel by birth which is largely disobedient to the commandment - 1 John 3 .....that we should believe on the name of His Son, Yeshua HaMashiach - but there is also a part which is fully obedient - accepting the Son and His Father´s Torah.